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Crist Blog | June 17, 2008
Another Legislative Disgrace
The bill passed Monday by state legislators will raise the parimutuel takeout on New York races by one percent beginning Sept. 14, an unnecessary and punitive increase that was not sought by anyone except the New York City OTB corporation, which the same bill basically put out of its misery after nearly 40 years of operation.
The bill also appears to raise the takeout on at least some bets on out-of-state races made in New York, a highly unorthodox surcharge, though it is unclear exactly how this would work or which races would fall under its scope.
As per the usual clueless reporting on racing matters in the general press, the passage of the bill is being widely hailed as a plucky 11th-hour piece of public service by the Mayor and the Governor to save jobs and avoid cuts in social services. It was nothing of the kind.
A quick recap: NYC Mayor Mike Bloomberg earlier this year said he would close down NYCOTB on June 15 unless the state threw another $20 million or so a year its way because he claimed the city would start losing money on OTB. This was possible only if you ignored that the city was making $19 million a year on OTB through its unique, regressive "surcharge" on winning bets, which reduces winning payoffs by 5 to 50 percent for the lowest economic tier of bettors, those who play at shabby storefront "parlors" instead of teletheaters or through phone accounts.
Last week, the state called Bloomberg's irresponsible bluff, saying it would happily take OTB's profitable operation off Bloomberg's hands, and announced Friday it had a deal. Then Bloomerg said wait, not so fast, I still want that $19 million a year in profits. The same profits whose existence he ignored in claiming he would have to start laying off cops and firemen. He ended up settling for $4.5 million in ongoing annual payments, plus three years of annual $3.25 million payments to keep the races on the two city-owned public-access cable channels.
So how did the takeout increase survive? Well, someone had already drafted a bill, and the state's five other OTB's weren't going to take a pass on millions in free money, so nobody bothered to whack it out. The increase supposedly sunsets in two years, by which time a supposedly slots-rich racing economy will allow lawmakers to let it expire. Breath-holding is not recommended.
On the brighter side, the state takeover of NYCOTB at least raises the possibility of some sort of consolidation of the state's crazy and wasteful OTB system. And Bloomberg's appalling behavior throughout this episode -- from his tonedeaf bashing of wagering to his duplicitous and inept negotiating -- has cost him plenty of political capital and exposed his supposed sharp business acumen as a fraud.
Posted by Steven Crist Jun 17, 2008 1:09:31 PM | Permalink
Keywords:
Comments
prozac_jack says:
Steve,Please tell your bloggers, if they don't like something that's going on in racing the best thing they can do is, sit down and write a letter to the appropriate parties,remember the pen is mightier than the sword...This dam take issue drives me nuts, all of your readers are willing to gamble on a horse, NOT knowing the EXACT mutual return,and they worry about the TAKE....You can off- set the Take issue buy cutting back on your worthless $24.00 to $120.00 pic-6 tickets that cost you more money annually than any amount of TAKE.... Start sending your letters my friends, and write them New York style, you don't have to be nice to the people that are ruining this great game of ours. All of my cost associated with this game are paid by the losers, as long as I win month after month , year after year, I'm a happy camper..My letters to many West Coast racing officials, landed me in many of their offices,And changes I promoted actually took place, which helped me AND my fellow player's.....So bombard them with letters or shut up about the TAKE.........
Posted by Prozac Jack Jun 22, 2008 12:49:35 PM
stephen_taylor says:
Well, I've never played many NY races anyway, and I can pretty much promise those of you who do that you're stuck with the extra % for 2 years, but with Alex Waldrip (head of the NTRA) proporting to be a "friend/advocate" of horseplayers, and I'm sure, having some pull with the people who pick Breeder's Cup sights, etc. how about this:
First, New York tracks will not be CONSIDERED as BC host tracks as long as the "surcharge" is in place and "as an added bonus" no BC "win and your in races" will be held in New York while the surcharge is in place (after this year, since they've already been scheduled)and last but not least NO BREEDERS CUP PURSE MONEY WILL BE AVAILABLE (again after this season) until the surcharge is dropped! In affect, what I'm saying is for the BC people to step up and do something for the players. With the criticism they've gotten for the back to back BC's at Santa Anita, this would be a public relations "pick me up" and would send the NYRA, etc. scrambling, wouldn't it!
Posted by Stephen Taylor Jun 20, 2008 9:25:54 AM
cangamble says:
Nothing wrong with Kelso's honest comments.
But the "thinking" that a 1% increase in track takeout will mean more money for the industry is absolutely laughable.
Most people aren't cognizant of the affects of takeouts, but they do realize when they are losing money faster than ever before.
The public collectively has X amount of dollars that they will lose betting on horses in, for example, NY state. People will just collectively lose their money faster. Many will become disillusion and stop betting for a periods or bet smaller, or even cease completely. The track takeout increase, will not attract more money to be lost by horseplayers. It will not attract new players either.
The only way to attract new players is to make it easier for the odd player to actually win. You need buzz of victory to create new customers. The track takeout for the industry should be around 10-12% tops. People will last longer but inevitably, most will lose the same, no matter what the takeout is. But some players will win (just like online poker, or sports betting), and this will create BUZZ and new players and a lot more extra money in the pools.
Posted by Cangamble Jun 20, 2008 8:41:47 AM
kelso13 says:
To Jel,
Just what is that I don't get?That horseplayers don't have self control or that they are not organized?That an additional 1% increase is fair or deserved.Believe me I hate the idea that I will have to give up another 1% on my bets.However,I cannot and will not have this set back detract from the overall experience of Belmont Park and Saratoga.If that increase will keep you from those experiences than I feel sorry for you and it is you who does not get it.
Posted by kelso13 Jun 20, 2008 7:39:21 AM
jel says:
All you have to do Is read Kelso's comments and know that Race tracks love people like him.
He just doesn't get It!
Posted by Jel Jun 20, 2008 1:17:30 AM
rob says:
On top of the 1% takeout hike demanded by NYC OTB, now NYC OTB has legally blocked NYRA's ability to show replays on NYRA's own website.
NY State hasn't got a clue on how to run this business.
Posted by Rob Jun 19, 2008 11:23:17 PM
cangamble says:
Woodbine has one of the most atrociously high track takeouts in North America. On my blog I did a chart and they had something like the 6th or 7th highest takeout out of 57 tracks surveyed.
Here is what their takeout is:
Woodbine Takeout Information
Win, place, and show: 16.95%
Exactors and Daily Double: 20.5%
Pick 3 and Superfecta wagering: 26.3%
Triactor wagering: 28.3%
Win 4 wagering: 25%
Pick 7: 26.3%
Compared to Keeneland:
Keeneland Takeout Information
Win, place, and show: 16%
Pick 3, 4 and 6: 17%
All other wagers: 19%
Posted by Cangamble Jun 19, 2008 7:38:15 PM
flipper_dawson says:
Woodbine dropped Race 4 yesterday from turf to Poly Crap, yet let Pick 4 go on races 4,5,6 and 7.
So, no betting as there were turf horses running on non-turf in Race 4.
Then, for some insane reason, WO cancelled the late Pick 4 on races 5,6,7 and 8.No reason given. If they were going to cancel a Pick 4, they should have dropped the early one, when Race 4 was off the turf.
These monkeys never fail to amaze me.
------------------------------
Today was nice--played Pick 4 on races 4,5,6 and 7.
Singled in race 4 and 5. In race 6, played 5 horses, and race 7, only needed 4 to take the Pick 4.
Payoff was $775.00, so for my 20 cent ticket costing $4.00, I got back $155.00.
Posted by Flipper Dawson Jun 19, 2008 6:06:25 PM
mark_c says:
Trying to find a bettable race at belmont today...there might be...two..maybe
turf sprints...slow NY breds...small fields..I have a new name for belmont..."Pimlico North"
Posted by mark c Jun 19, 2008 3:20:30 PM
comedy_show says:
The great thing about NY racing is that you never know when or where your next hardy laugh is coming from. Now, i can save money on the Chris Rock and Carrot Top CD's i was planning on buying, becuase this is funnier than both those fine comedians combined.
It comes down to supply and demand. If bettors continue to patronize NYRA and NYCOTB and don't care about the takeout rate, than the powers that be did the right thing...if no one is going to care, why NOT raise takeout?
Plenty will care and either curtail their betting altogether, or bet much less....but, will it be enough? Will there be enough bettors to stop betting NY's races to make enough of a statement that raising takeout is not acceptable? Time will tell.
Posted by comedy show Jun 19, 2008 2:14:31 PM
mark_c says:
I see where richard dutrow isn't going to testify ......
he has a "virus" Funny how a guy that uses so many drugs on his horses.....can't find any for himself!
Posted by mark c Jun 19, 2008 1:45:24 PM
arcstats says:
Dutrow fails to show at the Cogressional hearings this morning. Claims he was to sick to attend, yet fails to inform anyone about his absence. The committee is pissed.
Why does this not surprise me?
Posted by Arcstats Jun 19, 2008 10:39:53 AM
kelso13 says:
Let's stop all this nonsense about a boycott.Horseplayers do not have self control and are never going to be organized enough to pull off a boycott.Just walk into any OTB and you will find players too dumb enough to realize that they are getting hit with a 5%(it's actually a lot more than 5%)surcharge,when all they have to do is open up a phone account to avoid the surcharge.If they are not willing to take that simple step to save money than what does another 1% mean to them.Most of us will do what we always do.Keep playing,because the game is greater than the idiots who continue to try to kill it.Sure, some big bettors will switch games or bet offshore where they will receive real rebates,but the the majority of us will keep playing.Maybe this view is somewhat defeatist.I have been enthralled by this game ever since 1959,when at 16 years old I was taken to the brand new Aqueduct Racetrack by my uncle.I actually still have a pencil from that day which has "Aqueduct The Wonder Track" printed on it.At the end of the day my uncle was about to toss his "Morning Telegraph" into the trash.I took it home with me and using the key page , I started to try to figure out what all the numbers and symbols meant and how the information could be used to try to determine not only who would win the race but how the race would be run.Nearly 50 years later I am still trying,and what fun it still is.If your experience as a player has been and is different, than maybe you should find another game.I never play them but I understand that slot machines are an easy game to play and the takeout is much less(if you discount the churn which will negate the lower takeout).So all you crybaby horseplayers can go to A.C. or wherever and mindlessly pull the handle and not think at all as you lose your money and down the free drinks.Me, I will be at Belmont this P.M. ,as I am every P.M.,sitting under a tree with my Form ,still trying to figure it all out.
Posted by kelso13 Jun 19, 2008 7:11:41 AM
george315 says:
Steve,
Thank you for your response. I will do so. Where can I find some specific clarification on net pool pricing? If I made a mistake, I apologize. I just can't stand it when I'm up to $2 or $3 K in a parlay and lose 10-15% to an unexpected surprise. To me it's simple: $100,000 in the show pool. 15% Vigorish = $85,000 left over. Horse #1 has $20,000. Horse #2 has $10,000 and horse #3 has $5,000. $85,000 - $35,000 is $50,000 in profit. $50,000 diveded by 3 is $16,666.66. If I bet the 3 to show in my parlay I should receive $8.60 to show (rounded down from $8.67). Many times, I receive $7.80 or so. I look forward to reviewing a situation with your help. Thank you sincerely.
Posted by George315 Jun 19, 2008 2:29:45 AM
leslie says:
If you are not in New York City, please email NYRA and let them know that you will not subsidize the NYC OTB with your betting dollars!
Posted by leslie Jun 18, 2008 11:23:41 PM
arcstats says:
For anyone interested in some early morning comedy, the House Committee hearing on the State of Thoroughbred Racing airs tomorrow (Thursday) on C-SPAN3 at 10:00AM. This should be a "real beauty".
Posted by Arcstats Jun 18, 2008 11:14:37 PM
flipper_dawson says:
Note to hud, and all the rest of you chaps:
I really like the idea of boycotting the first race every day. To jam up the lines, make up picket signs and hold them to arriving (m)asses.
The sign should say you are boycotting Race 1 only.
You could have a small paper stating how all players are getting screwed, and pass one to each person coming in.
Also, anyone who works in a Union may not cross the picket line.
If post time is 1:00 PM, you should be there at 11:30 AM.
It will make the papers if you picket. The papers will take your side of the story.
So, you will win.
Posted by Flipper Dawson Jun 18, 2008 11:10:55 PM
unitas says:
Flip, no disrespect, but as you should know, it sounds a lot easier just to start playing one track after you have been playing another for a long period of time. If I have invested years and years following a certain circuit, and just decided to start playing a circuit that I am unfamiliar with, well, it would take such a long period of time to acclimate yourself to all the aspects that are involved in handicapping that you can literally go crazy. Maybe I am just too set in my ways, but unless I am forced to change venues from my home track, I would be very leery and feel very intimated knowing that I am now facing a "handicap" playing against others who have more knowledge than I possess of the horses, horsemen, track biases and other variables that are used in handicapping thoroughbred races every day.
Posted by Unitas Jun 18, 2008 9:25:17 PM
mattruther says:
Steve, I agree with Mike D. Your "A door better left unopened" should be required reading for legislators in DC. You should be #1 on the witness list as well. Love the blog and the insightful commentary.
Posted by mattruther Jun 18, 2008 9:24:58 PM
don_reed says:
Practicing my Saratoga Softshoe Horsey Poetry Contest entry...are we there yet are we there yet are we there yet?
Humpty Bookie Sat On the Wall...
Humpty Bookie Had A Great Fall...
Humpty Bookie Went Off As The Favored Egg,
And All of the King's Horses!
And All of the King's Men!
Couldn't Put
That Chalky Load-Up Exacta
Back Together Again!
Posted by Don Reed Jun 18, 2008 9:10:42 PM
hud says:
Trying to get a handle on this proposed 1% increased takeout on out of state wagers by NY residents. Might it mean that sometimes it will reduce pay-offs to NY residents and sometimes it won't depending on the amount bet on the winner as per the following illustration: Say there is 100k bet into the win pool at Churchill Downs...Horse A wins and 26k of the pool is bet on Horse A, that would make the Churchill pay-off 3.10 per dollar wagered (100k x .16 takeout = 84k/26k = 3.23 minus breakage = 3.20)...for a NY bettor it appears it would be 3.10 per dollar wagered (100k x .17 takeout = 83k/26k = 3.19 minus breakage = 3.10). However, if 25.5k instead of 26k had been wagered on Horse A it seems both the Churchill and NY pay-offs would be the same (CD=84k/25.5=3.29=3.20..... NY=83k/25.5=3.25=3.20). Am I figuring this correctly? Also one other point: It doesn't seem right that NY will figure 17% takeout for the entire pool when perhaps only 10-20k actually was bet from NY and only that amount should be subject to the 1% figuring, which in itself could make a difference in the amount payed out to NY bettors. For an old timer like me who loves to follow horses and make significant bets when they get in the right spot, a reduction of 20-40 cents of the profit for every $2 bet can have a significant impact on overall profit for large capital wagers. Guess I have two choices - get Steve's book and start to play the exotics...or...move to Canada and play Woodbine with the Flipper!!!!!
Posted by hud Jun 18, 2008 7:41:14 PM
mike says:
I love to read your posts. Can you give us some people to Email that 'might' listen.
I am getting kinda sick of NY bs. They want too much. You cant even make an easy off track deposit without a surcharge.
I use Youbet and it is easy to deposit money without any extra charges. Is NY so backwards they cant figure it out?
Posted by Mike Jun 18, 2008 6:39:18 PM
flipper_dawson says:
If the bloggers not liking the US tracks, why worry?
You can play Woodbine, good payoffs, and no tax. What else could you want?
Details sent to whoever requests them.
Posted by Flipper Dawson Jun 18, 2008 5:02:54 PM
jk says:
...The hacks put off the increase until after Saratoga to avoid a spotlight on the issue. It is the perfect time to shine the light back on.
In the mean time, I am boycotting one race for every card I play. There is usually at least one race you are better off skipping and now I have an excuse to do so.
Saturday's first race at Belmont,a cheap claimer on the turf is as good a place to start as any.
Posted by jk Jun 18, 2008 4:32:46 PM
unitas says:
.... A lifelong NY'er, I am thoroughly disgusted the way horseplayers have been and still are treated by the government and tracks alike. It seems their mindset is that all horseplayers are degenerate and compulsive gamblers who will accept whatever is thrown their way(and unfortunatley to this point, that is a fairly accurate description). We, as horseplayers, can do something about it, and it can start right here! There are a lot of intelligent people who participate regularly on this blog, and I am sure if we put our ideas and feelings together we can come up with a way that NYRA and the horseracing community will have no choice but to hear us out!
Posted by Unitas Jun 18, 2008 3:35:36 PM
el_angelo says:
I cannot see how boycotting one race would change anything. Boycotting for a month would maybe get the tracks' attention. Maybe.
Steve, a quick question. I know you said that "It's been proven dozens of times that raising takeout decreases handle while lowering it increases handle, yet they keep raising it." My question is does handle go up enough when the takeout is dropped to make it worth the tracks' while? For example, dropping the WPS takeout from 15% to 14% would require an increase in handle of 7% to make it a break-even proposition for the track. Does that actually happen? Because if the handle only goes up 4%, the gain in handle is meaningless to the tracks' bottom line.
Posted by El Angelo Jun 18, 2008 3:03:36 PM
aw says:
For the greatest impact, any such boycott has to take place on September 14, which is the first day of the takeout increase. But I don't think a one day or once race boycott will make a smidgen of a difference to anyone. There has to be a long term cutback for anyone to take notice.
Posted by AW Jun 18, 2008 2:14:03 PM
rawlawltd says:
... I am also not convinced that a boycott would work, but think that it is more feasible now with the info age of the internet than ever before. Of course, Saratoga is not the place to start. The rate doesn't go into effect until after & the tourist crowd is as uninformed as the OTB patron. If you are willing to pay a 5% surcharge, then what's another 1%. But the boycott still intrigues me. Let's hear some discussion of good ideas on when, how & where to be heard. If I am leaving anyway, let's give it a try.
Posted by rawlawltd Jun 18, 2008 1:20:41 PM
arcstats says:
...You are correct in your position regarding rising takeouts equal a reduction in handle. But I contend that if every serious horseplayer refrained from wagering for an extended period of time, things would happen. If every racetrack's handle was suddenly reduced by 50%, things would happen.
But in reality, I'm the idiot for thinking that horseplayers have the patience, dicipline, and proper mental attitude to refrain fror betting in the short term for the potential good of the game in the long term. The majority strictly want the action, regardless of ridiculous conditions of all the parameters involved in the game.
Posted by Arcstats Jun 18, 2008 1:06:54 PM
kyle says:
Steve,
While I have to agree a single boycott isn't going to get the increase repealed just pulling off even a semi-successful gesture would be a step in the right direction. We have five weeks before Saratoga. If the idea of a first race boycott (wagering and cheering) could achieve critical mass it could break out into the local media. Maybe we could get public handicappers to agree to offer "no opinion" on the race. And DRF's Seminar at Siro's could start with the second race that day. If we could shine the spotlight of opening day on the issue it would be a victory unto itself.
Posted by kyle Jun 18, 2008 11:54:18 AM
steven_crist says:
WC,
The problem with your clever argument is that the surcharge does not apply to all bets made away from the track, only to those made at OTB storefronts. There is no surcharge on OTB phone or teletheatre bets.
And I guess I'm more cynical than those of you who think that a boycott would send a message that would lead to legislative action. It's been proven dozens of times that raising takeout decreases handle while lowering it increases handle, yet they keep raising it.
George,
Nobody is stealing your place and show money. Net-pool pricing is different from the way payoffs have been traditionally calculated. The next time you think a calculation is amiss, please write down the numbers and we can all go through the calculation exercise together.
Posted by Steven_Crist Jun 18, 2008 10:46:22 AM
hud says:
Steve...
Any chance of posting a link to your article "A door better left unopened" so those of us who are non-suscribers could read it?
George...
Very interesting comments on Win-Place-Show pay-offs. I too often check the pay-offs to see if they figure right. Tampa is my main track of play and their pay-offs have figured correctly, now you have me curious about NY Tracks as I do play some at Saratoga so I will be curious to see if those pay-offs figure correctly.
Dennis...
love your idea of DRF announcing a boycott and publicizing it for a week, with everyone still agreeing to buy the Form that day.
Posted by hud Jun 18, 2008 10:45:52 AM
bochalls says:
Noble idea to round up the troops and organize a boycott of NYRA or SAR or whatever. One problem though...it won't work. That's like asking crackheads not to buy from their dealer because the prices are too high or they don't like the service...we can't stop and they know it. If a horse that is on my list to watch appears on the proposed boycott days I gotta play him. That is what all the work I do is for. Many other players are also waiting on horses to run back and won't pass them up either. In my opinion, the best racing in America is at Bel and Sar (Kee is in a category by itself) and it is the focus of my handicapping calendar....we all have our breaking points but I have not reached mine yet.
Posted by bochalls Jun 18, 2008 9:57:22 AM
flipper_dawson says:
As far as Woodbine goes, I feel that their takeout is OK now.However, I have no way of really knowing this.
So, you Yankees could boycott your US tracks, and play Woodbine.If Woodbine is not up to snuff, george 315 the math whiz, would soon figure that out.
As far as I know, you would always get track odds. However, the 20 cent bets might only be for Canadian patrons.
If anyone is interested, send it to me on this blog, and I can find out the plus and minus options to bet the Woodbine races.
That way, you can teach the US tracks that you are not available to simply hand over your money.
Woodbine is a fresher track, and always seems clean, etc., when I go there.
There is phone and Internet wagering for patrons at WO.
I will not investigate your options, unless enough people ask for it on this blog section.
Posted by Flipper Dawson Jun 18, 2008 9:51:20 AM
jeff_tatus says:
Because I am strictly a tri, super, Pick 4-6 player, I agree w/lyle_benjamin... Just don't bet into their tri or super pool when they're at Belmont or h2o-duct.
The only safe place to bet is Saratoga even with the take-out. There is so much money there (contributed by people as ignorant as the Mayor) that the Spa is the only venue where you have a chance to get paid stupid money... Hit Repeat, Repeat, Repeat.
Posted by jeff_tatus Jun 18, 2008 9:39:25 AM
neddy53 says:
The only answer is to stop betting at the OTB system in NY.
Posted by neddy53 Jun 18, 2008 8:28:09 AM
jel says:
Dennis is right,with the help of DRF and the blogs we can boycott a certain track for one race and then one day.
If we can do 30 to 40% damage to a track,the rest of the industry might wake up.
With the Internet and some advertising It can be done!
Posted by Jel Jun 18, 2008 1:25:06 AM
samg says:
I`m in on any boycott if someone could actually organize it.I`m already boycotting synthetic surfaces,this years BC and anything else I don`t agree with.Maybe I don`t bet enough for anybody to care but it makes me feel better.Handle will likely fall when the increase kicks in and like AW I will take my business elsewhere at that time.It sucks not to bet Saratoga but I lived through it last year.For years Del Mar has been where I`ve made my biggest and sometimes only profits so last year was looking bleak until I started winning at Ellis.There`s always another track or some other way to invest the money.I may not know jack but one thing I do know,Jack,is that takeout matters."Only" a 1% increase will put any player who is currently near break even in the red.
Posted by SamG Jun 18, 2008 1:20:11 AM
kevroc says:
Just a thought...
OTB makes it's money on "winning" wagers, right?
Then if I was OTB, I would be supplying the horseplayer with a large selection of handicapping tools and helpful publications to help the players get an edge.
The OTB program is and always has been quite weak. I would even go as so far to schedule seminars with top handicappers, roundtables etc...
I'd love to run one of those bar/restaurant teletheaters and really make it a place where players can learn the game and improve their skills while having a great time.
It's a shame that this game seems to be stuck in neutral.
Posted by kevroc Jun 18, 2008 12:57:29 AM
mike_d says:
Off-topic, but I just read your editorial, "A door better left unopened"
The most accurate assessment I've read to date. Should be required reading for everyone in the industry.
Would love to see it published op ed in the Washington Post, the NY Times...
Posted by mike d Jun 18, 2008 12:03:34 AM
lyle_benjamin says:
I kept saying "what the f*&?" when my trifectas were coming in twenty five percent or more under what I thought they were going to pay on Belmont day. After the day was over, I declared "New York races won't get one more cent of my money until things change." Hello Del Mar, Keeneland, and Churchill!
Posted by Lyle Benjamin Jun 17, 2008 11:49:24 PM
george315 says:
Steve,
I am a numbers man and a math FREAK! On numerous occassions I have played parlays at NYRA and after certain races I have calculated "my" show, place or win payoff. To my disgust and disbelieve, I can prove to you that there have been many races where the payoff was off by replusive amounts. NO, I did not make a mistake. It is very easy to calculate the WPS payoffs. I do not for 1 second believe that Net Pool pricing can have an 8% reduction in a pool (yes, I factored in dime breakage). If you don't believe me, check out race 1 SUNDAY 06/15 at Belmont. I don't have the #'s, I wish I did. It is the 100th time that I calculated the payoff to the penny, only to be screwed. The 3 horse won the race, payed .60 less to place than he should have. I'm used to it. FOR ONCE, Dawson is 100% right. I do not trust the track's and their VIG. It is BS. No where can we see how much was bet on a certain combination in an exacta, tri, sup, p3 etc. The WPS pools are there for everyone to see. How dare they have the testicular fortitude to rip us off blatantly???? 1% increase? I have been working with a 3-8% increase the last few years. What's the difference?
Posted by George315 Jun 17, 2008 11:39:40 PM
itsposttime says:
Just another reason not to bet NYRA.
Posted by itsposttime Jun 17, 2008 11:15:51 PM
w_c says:
I basically agree with the sentiments being expressed here, but it's my nature to be contrarian on some aspect of the conversation.
So here I go. ;-)
There is some rationale for OTB having a surcharge given the current organization of racing in NY.
Most OTB patrons gamble relatively lightly. The cumulative effect of the 5% surcharge on their daily handle is less than the cost of gas, parking, entrance, and overpriced food at the track. So it actually makes economic sense for them to stay local, play at OTB, and accept lower prices.
The last thing you would want to do is give the same incentives to big bettors. That's exactly what would happen if the surcharge was removed.
At a certain higher level of betting, the surcharge has the positive effect of costing the horse player so much money, it's rational for him to go to the track, play via phone into his NYRA account, play via internet etc...
The track gets a bigger cut of the pie that way.
I doubt that was the original intent of the surcharge because most politicans are too stupid and corrupt to understand this, but it does have a benefical effect "at the margin".
Posted by W. C. Jun 17, 2008 10:19:01 PM
hammer says:
I'm with you Kyle. Hit em where it hurts: The pocketbook. How do we get the message to the masses, though? Especially at the SPA where there's lots of tourist play...
Posted by Hammer Jun 17, 2008 9:39:44 PM
dennis says:
The only way to get a decent boycott going is to have a publication like DRF target certain day(s) and put it on the front page. Announce it every day for a week in advance. Unforunately, that would hurt DRF's own interest. -unless they could convince bettors to buy the publication on the boycott days but not wager in NY-
Posted by Dennis Jun 17, 2008 8:56:46 PM
justin says:
Who is this guy kidding with his I'll have to layoff cops and other city workers, We had to wait until last month to get our raise, this only got us caught up until 2006, and we needed the PERB bill to get help. The sooner he gets the heck out of dodge the better off everyone will be.
Posted by Justin Jun 17, 2008 8:39:21 PM
yuwipi says:
These kind of stories always make me think what a person, or group of people, with knowledge, analytical ability, perspective and most of all good intentions could do, or could have done with horse racing. If the legendary one ring of power was offered to you Steve, would you take it? I guess I'm a dreamer.
I'm afraid that as tawdry a show as we just witnessed in New York, it might well be worse in Washington D.C. I've heard said that the most dangerous place in Washington is between one of these committee people and the nearest TV camera. I hope everyone called to testify, even Dickie Duts, realizes that if these inquisitors put you under oath and you lie you are in a potential world of hurt.
Sometimes I look at the horse racing situation and can't help but be reminded of the Joe Pesci line at the end of "Casino". "We had it all, and we screwed it up", or words to that effect.
Posted by yuwipi Jun 17, 2008 8:32:38 PM
flipper_dawson says:
Disecting the Pick 4.
Where? Woodbine
When? Wed.
Races 5,6,7 and 8
Now, let's borrow a nice sharp scalpel off my grandfather Hannibal Lecter.
Race 5--single #2
Race 6--Single #2
Race 7--#'s 2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8
Race 8--#'s 1,8,9,12
Total outlay is $5.60 to cover 13 horses.
Time taken to build bet- 30 minutes.
----------------------------
But, wait, I'm not done yet. The early Pick 4 begins with Race 4 on the turf.
Rain is forecast, so it may be put on the Heinz 57 variety soup cans -hold the molasses Poly crap.
If on turf, #'s are 4,5,7,10,11,12, and 14.
So, cost of early Pick 4 is $9.80.
This covers 16 horses from Race 4 to 7.
Probably off turf, as races were off the turf on the weekend, with no rain at all. Go figure.
Anyway, felt I would post, for copy cat killers in the crowd!!!
Posted by Flipper Dawson Jun 17, 2008 8:19:15 PM
oneforthetrack says:
let's shut this down sept 14 no more talk there are options orion prophecy day for racing everywhere who better to lead the way than the players of NY
Posted by oneforthetrack Jun 17, 2008 8:15:37 PM
flipper_dawson says:
No problems up here in Canada re OTB. The one thing that irks me is that for Woodbine, where the makeup of the track is shown under TRACKS on the Web, they have the takeout away lower than what is really taken.
For example, recently they had the Pick 4 takeout lower than all other bets, when in reality, it was much higher than quoted.
Yes, you stuffed shirts, there are a lot of losers who can't add giving you their money, but as you know by now, I'm not one of them.
Posted by Flipper Dawson Jun 17, 2008 6:54:10 PM
jim_f says:
Regarding the VIP lounges: What amount of handle gets you deemed VIP?
Posted by jim f Jun 17, 2008 6:46:49 PM
prozac_jack says:
Don't play this game if your worried about the "take-out" NOBODY takes more out of the pockets of the $2.00 bettors than the "wise guys' in the last few minuets before post.Why not complain about paying your taxes. When you bet a horse you don't know if you are going to get 5-2 or 8-5, you act like it's a fixed mutual return, but it's not.. So forget about the TAKE and like the song says "don't worry be happy"
Posted by Prozac Jack Jun 17, 2008 5:59:08 PM
don_reed says:
Glad I stopped by. Steve's criticism of Bloomberg's bogus statements is right on the money! Does the Mayor remind you of the bombastic owners who drive their trainers nuts, by interfering with the training of their horses?
Now, let's see if something stops the mayor dead in his tracks, today or tomorrow. I haven't taken a look yet at any of the news sites/TV coverage, so your guess is as good as mine as to what non-negotiable roadblock or frustration will be in his path.
(The publicly humiliating article by Fred Dicker in this morning's NY Post - refuting the obviously ridiculous statements of both Bloomberg and Paterson - might qualify. But at 5 pm in the afternoon, this is already hours-old news.)
The bettors ended up having to pay an increase in the takeout to eliminate a business entity that - without the accounting frauds - actually was profitable. Steve harsh language - rarely unleashed - is entirely justified.
And since the legislation was rushed through without careful deliberation, I'm anticipating future revelations of additional problems created by its creation.
Posted by Don Reed Jun 17, 2008 4:55:41 PM
bob_m says:
steve,
this is just like the commercial for the cable company where the guy says that since we cant beat the competition, lets just raise the price!!!
so now the city gets a disaster of a company off its hands and gets millions over the next 3-4 years, all paid for by the bettors..?
if people thought that curlin was a lock, how about betting thousands that new york will never lower that 1% increase.. that is the best bet of the day..
thankfully i have tvg at home and play on the internet thru nyra rewards so at least the increase in takeout will be somewhat offset by my rebates..
just one more reason not to spend a nickel going out to the tracks and just stay home and play.. i probably save thousands a year in gas/tolls/admission/food/etc etc..
i only physically go to saratoga.. the only place worth being there on the east coast..
Posted by bob m. Jun 17, 2008 4:32:54 PM
horserun says:
how do the peopleof this country continue to allow these politicians to constantly take money out of our pockets at every turn....and to think i thought the owners of Curlin and Big Brown were common criminals, but they have nothing on most of the crooked politicians in NY, NJ and the entire USA...WOW !
Posted by horserun Jun 17, 2008 4:14:00 PM
bob_grant says:
Last Friday I jokingly wrote this on the Del Mar Fan Forum, in response to the idea of NY State getting in the OTB Biz...
---
Posted: 13 Jun 2008 22:47 Post subject: Stick a fork in NYRA; The state's gonna call the shots
---------
The first thing they're gonna do is increase the win surcharge from 5% to 10%.
Then, they'll petition the state to make NYRA increase the minimum takeout to 20%.
Finally, hackerama will stuff every OTB with relatives for the job benefit perks.
Can't wait for the "improvement$"
Posted by Bob Grant Jun 17, 2008 3:57:07 PM
oaktownabq says:
Steve,
I live in New Mexico, and I play NYRA races regularly on Youbet.com.
Is this one-percent takeout increase across the board?
On another taxation note, do you think the NTRA will be successful in changing the withholding rules on winning tickets?
I'm thinking of switching to black jack. There are enough Indian casinos around here that I could do that with no inconvenience whatsoever.
Posted by OaktownABQ Jun 17, 2008 3:48:46 PM
henry_vincent says:
When you deal with politicians there is no real answer.these guys are ruthlessand the general public that deal with these crooks should send a message do not use the service.the future looks grim.
Posted by henry vincent Jun 17, 2008 2:58:44 PM
henry_vincent says:
the mayor and the govener are just being political. you canno't trust either one of them.however the public are the real loosers,while these guys destroy this off track betting system.politicians are not trust worthy.look at the bush people.people in public life learn how not to tell the truth.
Posted by henry vincent Jun 17, 2008 2:51:04 PM
woodridgephil says:
right on steve once again the pols talk out of twosides of their mouths and the lazy press take the easy way by bashing us as degenerate gamblers.
Posted by woodridgephil Jun 17, 2008 2:32:19 PM
mike_d says:
The bloom is off the rose that once was Michael Bloomberg, politician.
He flat-out lied about OTB losing money, to whine his way to a better deal.
He desperately wanted (stupid) congestion pricing for driving into mid and lower Manhattan, which no one who lives and works in the Tri-State area had any interest in, not residents and not businesses, and he whined when he did not get what he wanted. All congestion pricing was good for was raising money for the big government that is New York City.
Mayor Bloomberg wanted to make a run for President and aborted when he saw that no one was interested in backing him for that job.
Great businessman or just another wealthy fraud? You decide.
Posted by Mike D. Jun 17, 2008 2:21:24 PM
kyle says:
JK,
I'm with you. But I'm thinking the first race of the Saratoga meet. "A race of silence in memory of the forgotten horseplayer." Let's talk it up. And if there's a response a follow-up the first race Travers Day.
Posted by kyle Jun 17, 2008 2:17:37 PM
aw says:
Steve,
We have corresponded many times via email regarding this issue and how you are the only individual in the press that correctly emphasizes this issue. I applaud your efforts in representing the bettors in trying to illuminate this matter to the racing community. I have also corresponded with Charlie Hayward regarding this and even though he appears to be against the increase, he seems to have higher priorities than the gambling public. NYRA has been launching an initiative to take better care of it's NYRA Rewards customers but their "players lounge" has yet to open and I have found out that, even for the most high volume players, there is really no great benefit other than drink and food coupons (and the food at the track is miserably bad).
I am the biggest fan of this game that you will find and am certainly a high volume gambler. The lack of a voice that I have is incredibly frustrating. It is very easy to take advantage of a group when they have no representation in negotiations such as the ones that took place between the Governor, Mayor & NYRA. I will continue to bet as I do through Saratoga (with the current takeout structure still in place)and then I will take a hiatus when the increase hits in mid-September. I don't want to take this action but it is the only way that I can speak my peace. Does anyone else out there have any suggestions as to how I or others can have an impact
on regulators that are making these highly destructive decisions?
AW
Posted by AW Jun 17, 2008 2:05:52 PM
rawlawltd says:
As usual, this will be sold as "only" a 1% increase when in fact it is between a 4% & 6.7% increase depending on which pool you bet into. It's 1% more, or 16% in the win pool rather than 15%. Big difference. jk, I would boycott one race, a whole card, the pick 6; anything to get these bastards to know that we're serious and have suggested & asked for some cooperation before, but have never gotten a response from ANYONE. For me, I'm closing my NYRA ONE account & I'm heading offshore where I can pick my own takeout.
Posted by rawlawltd Jun 17, 2008 2:02:45 PM
dennis says:
Agree, what a disgrace. The false statements that are being made about New York's takeout being relatively low compared to the rest of the nation is even a bigger disgrace. Now the New York trifectas, pick 3, pick 4 and pick six's will be at a 26% cut. This compares to a 19% take in Kentucky (a 37% difference from New York) and about 20% in California. Jersey's pick 4 and pick 5's are at 15% cut. They are counting on the bettors not changing their tracks or their bets. We shall see.
Posted by Dennis Jun 17, 2008 1:51:45 PM
arcstats says:
It's amazing how fast the politicians can act when it comes to fleecing the folks who fuel the entire industry.
When will the time come when the bettors say ENOUGH????
How about no betting for the entire first week of Saratoga. Everyone just stop. Pretend it's February and the inner track froze over for a week. It won't kill you to take a week off, and it would send one hell of a message to those in charge.
Even better yet, go to the track that first week, but don't bet. Bring in your cooler full of beer and just have a good time.
Posted by Arcstats Jun 17, 2008 1:43:36 PM
jk says:
This is a $25 million annual hit to the betting public based on 1% of NYRA's 2007 all source handle of $2.5 billion. I hope they use some of the money to fix the plumbing at Belmont.
A message needs to be sent. I suggest a betting strike on one race at Belmont. Let the powers that be know that we know what they are up to.
Posted by jk Jun 17, 2008 1:24:33 PM
Comments to this entry are closed.
About
Steven Crist has been the Publisher and a columnist for Daily Racing Form since 1998. Previously, he covered racing for The New York Times from 1981-1990; was founding editor-in-chief of The Racing Times in 1991-92; and a vice-president of the New York Racing Association from 1994-97. He recently released an instructional DVD titled "Exotic Tickets," and is the
author of several books including "Betting on Myself" and "Exotic Betting."
